Joe Rogan Experience #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

Daryl Davis and Jeff Schoep, a former neo-Nazi leader, discuss how open dialogue, empathy, and understanding core human values can lead individuals to abandon hateful ideologies and dedicate their lives to promoting tolerance and helping others leave extremist groups.

• Open dialogue and empathy can effectively challenge and change deeply ingrained hateful ideologies.

• Individuals, even leaders of extremist groups, are capable of profound change and dedicated work towards tolerance.

• Fostering connections based on universal human values is key to countering hate and promoting understanding.

Daryl Davis, a Black musician, and Jeff Schoep, the former head of the National Socialist Movement, share their extraordinary journey of building an unlikely friendship and converting over 200 extremists. Schoep recounts his childhood fascination with Nazism, family history, and indoctrination into the movement, eventually denouncing it and dedicating his life to helping others exit extremist groups. Davis emphasizes the power of conversation, respect, and identifying shared human values to foster genuine change and address deeply entrenched prejudices.

Daryl's Unique Approach

• 00:01:32 Daryl Davis explains that his method for converting white supremacists isn't about forcing them out, but rather about presenting new perspectives they haven't considered, leading them to re-evaluate their beliefs. He highlights that showing a 'different path' and being a 'good human' ultimately leads to individuals recognizing the negativity of hate and choosing to leave, with their lives often improving as a result.

Jeff's Nazi Indoctrination

• 00:05:25 Jeff Schoep, former leader of the National Socialist Movement for 27 years, describes his early fascination with Nazism, beginning in the fourth grade due to his German grandfather's involvement in Hitler's army. He explains that while not initially raised to hate, he sought out and joined the movement as a teenager, quickly rising through the ranks and becoming indoctrinated into racism and anti-Semitism.

Joining the NSM

• 00:09:01 Jeff recounts how he found the National Socialist Movement before the internet era, by locating addresses in a sociology book and physically writing to various organizations at age 18. He chose the NSM because it was a direct continuation of George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party, aligning with his desire for historical authenticity, and then underwent a vetting process including applications and background checks.

Historical Context of Nazism

• 00:12:06 The discussion covers the historical presence of Nazism in the U.S., including a large Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden before WWII, organized by the German American Bund. It highlights how symbols like the swastika were originally Hindu symbols of peace and how even the American flag salute resembled the Nazi salute, demonstrating how meanings can drastically shift over time. The conversation also reveals the anti-Semitic nature of the American Nazi movement from its inception in the 1930s.

Impact of Doxing and Doubt

• 00:20:06 Jeff shares a pivotal moment at age 19 when he was doxed on a radio show, revealing his true identity and connection to the Nazi movement. Instead of reconsidering his beliefs, he 'doubled down,' quitting his band, shaving his head, and dedicating himself entirely to the movement, which caused immense guilt and shame, particularly after it negatively impacted his mother's judicial career.

Catalyst for Change

• 00:36:18 Jeff's journey away from the movement began with small 'seeds' of doubt, notably his first meeting with Daryl Davis in 2016 for a documentary. He also credits a Muslim filmmaker, Dia Khan, who, like Daryl, used listening, curiosity, and sharing personal experiences to humanize those he had demonized. These interactions cracked open a 'window to compassion,' making him realize the pain his ideology caused.

Leaving the Movement & Aftermath

• 00:40:00 Jeff describes his years-long process of de-radicalization, including attempting to 'fix' the NSM by changing its image before realizing it was futile. He officially left in 2019, publicly denouncing racism, which led to hundreds of members departing the then-largest neo-Nazi organization. He now works with Daryl and organizations like the Simon Wiesenthal Center, educating youth and advising governments on extremism, despite facing the challenge of reintegrating into society with the stigma of his past.

The Five Core Values

• 00:54:15 Daryl Davis identifies five core values that every human being seeks: to be loved, respected, heard, treated fairly and truthfully, and to want good things for their family. He asserts that applying these values in adversarial situations, especially by offering different perceptions rather than attacking someone's reality, can de-escalate conflict and open minds to change, as exemplified in his interactions with extremists like Jeff.