Joe Rogan Experience #2395 - Mariana van Zeller

Mariana van Zeller, an investigative journalist, discusses the global black and gray markets, her new podcast "The Hidden Third," and the complex societal issues driving illicit activities, from drug trafficking and counterfeit money to rehab scams and immigration challenges, emphasizing the human stories behind these systems.

• Global black and gray markets constitute an estimated 35% of the world economy, impacting legitimate societies and public services.

• Investigative journalism reveals the human stories behind illicit trades, including the desperation driving individuals into trafficking and the systemic fraud in the rehab industry.

• Political polarization and societal division are exacerbated by media narratives, necessitating a focus on shared human values and empathetic understanding to address complex issues like addiction and immigration.

Investigative journalist Mariana van Zeller delves into her career covering global black markets and introduces her new podcast, "The Hidden Third," which explores the estimated 35% of the global economy operating outside legal frameworks. She shares harrowing experiences reporting on drug cartels, counterfeit operations, and the pervasive opioid crisis, highlighting the systemic failures and human desperation that fuel these illicit industries. The discussion also touches on highly polarizing political topics like immigration, militias, and the pharmaceutical industry, advocating for empathy and systemic solutions over division.

Journalism Career & New Podcast

• 00:02:15 Mariana van Zeller discusses the demanding and dangerous nature of her investigative journalism, particularly her show "Trafficked," which concluded after five seasons due to its high cost and risk, as well as National Geographic's shift towards natural history programming. She has launched a new podcast, "The Hidden Third," named for the estimated 35% of the global economy comprising black and gray markets, aiming to provide a platform for intimate conversations with individuals living on the other side of the law to understand their motivations and the impact of these markets.

The Hidden Third Economy

• 00:03:45 The podcast "The Hidden Third" is named after the estimated 35% of the global economy consisting of black and gray markets. This includes not only illegal activities like drugs and guns (15-20%) but also unregulated, untaxed work and goods, such as street vendors. This hidden economy significantly impacts legitimate society by reducing funds for public services like schools and hospitals, and it directly affects global issues like drug trade and immigration.

Engaging with Illicit Figures

• 00:07:50 Interviewing individuals involved in illegal activities for both her TV show and podcast is challenging, as active traffickers and smugglers are wary of setups. For her TV show, meetings often took place in undisclosed, comfortable locations like vans or drug labs, but for the podcast, it's harder to convince them to come to an office. People agree to talk for reasons including ego, impunity in corrupt systems, and a desire to be understood, often revealing their skills and life stories they can't share elsewhere.

Cartel Operations in the US

• 00:11:02 Mariana explored the extensive presence of cartels within the United States, starting her investigation in Sinaloa, Mexico, to gain access to their operations in the US. She describes filming meth and fentanyl labs and the dangers involved, noting that cartels are more wary of American law enforcement than Mexican due to high corruption levels in Mexico. One notable interview was with 'El Gringo,' an American citizen who acted as a wholesale drug buyer and distributor for the cartel in the US, using commercial airlines and often employing strippers as drug mules due to lower suspicion.

Rehab Scams & Body Brokering

• 00:32:14 Mariana investigated the "rehab scam," an episode of her show focusing on fraudulent rehabilitation centers, especially in Arizona and California. These scams involve "body brokering"—the illegal buying and selling of addicts—and billing insurance for treatments not provided. Many victims are Native Americans, targeted due to easy access to health insurance. These fake centers house individuals without offering genuine treatment, generating millions by exploiting insurance plans and vulnerable populations, with some operators driving luxury cars while patients receive inadequate care.

Drug Crisis & Potential Solutions

• 00:39:16 The ongoing drug crisis is a public health issue that militarized approaches have failed to solve, with 3,000 Americans dying weekly from addiction. The introduction of "tranq dope," fentanyl mixed with the animal tranquilizer xylazine, has led to horrific wounds and amputations, as seen in places like Kensington, Philadelphia. While Portugal's decriminalization of drugs showed positive results, a similar attempt in Oregon failed due to a lack of supporting infrastructure for rehabilitation. The psychedelic ibogaine shows promising efficacy in treating addiction, but its Schedule I classification restricts widespread use, although it is being explored for PTSD in Texas veterans.

Immigration Debates

• 00:59:24 Immigration in the US is a deeply divisive issue, with migrants often used as political pawns. It is legal to enter the U.S. without papers to seek asylum based on persecution (race, religion, nationality, political opinion, social group). Millions of undocumented immigrants contribute billions in taxes, challenging the narrative that they do not contribute economically. The current system lacks a clear pathway to legal status, leading to humanitarian crises like families being separated and deported to countries they barely remember. This complicated system, with its lack of resolution over decades, raises questions about whether it benefits politicians and corporations who exploit cheap labor.

Challenges to Journalism & Unity

• 01:41:15 Mainstream journalism faces challenges, with cable news networks often acting as propaganda arms for political parties, contributing to societal division. Independent journalists, however, offer a promising alternative by reporting truth regardless of party lines. The pervasive tribalism and hatred fueled by social media distract from crucial issues like AI and global problems. The podcast discusses the need for non-violent, intelligent leaders who can unite ideologically divided groups by focusing on common goals like safety, education, and fairness, rather than perpetuating conflict.