Joe Rogan Experience #2392 - John Kiriakou

Former CIA officer John Kiriakou recounts his whistleblowing, subsequent imprisonment for exposing the US torture program, and the systemic corruption and politicization within US intelligence agencies and government that he believes led to his prosecution and enduring challenges.

• The CIA's 'enhanced interrogation techniques' constituted torture, were ineffective, and directly caused prisoner deaths.

• John Kiriakou was politically prosecuted for whistleblowing on the torture program, highlighting systemic corruption within US intelligence and government.

• The 'deep state' and legalized government propaganda contribute to a distorted public narrative and threaten core democratic principles.

John Kiriakou, a former CIA officer, shares his experience refusing to participate in the agency's 'enhanced interrogation techniques' (torture program) and his subsequent decision to expose it publicly. He details his capture of Abu Zubaydah, the ineffectiveness of torture compared to FBI interrogation methods, and the politically motivated charges of espionage that led to his imprisonment. Kiriakou highlights the existence of an unaccountable 'deep state' that can bypass presidential authority and the pervasive corruption that utilizes the legal system against individuals like himself.

Early CIA Career

• 00:00:12 John Kiriakou recounts his early CIA career, including replacing Mike Baker in Athens, a city where the US government spent more on security than anywhere else due to dangerous indigenous and foreign terrorist groups. He later became head of counterterrorism operations in Pakistan after 9/11, tasked with capturing high-value al-Qaeda targets.

Refusing Torture Program

• 00:05:07 Upon returning to headquarters in May 2002, Kiriakou was asked to be certified in 'enhanced interrogation techniques' and was given a detailed description of 10 methods. Viewing these as a torture program, he consulted a senior officer who warned against involvement, calling it a 'slippery slope' that would lead to imprisonment. Kiriakou declined the training, facing professional repercussions including being passed over for promotion for a 'shocking lack of commitment'.

Ineffectiveness of Torture

• 00:21:40 Kiriakou asserts that the CIA's torture program was ineffective, contrasting it with the FBI's respectful interrogation methods, which yielded actionable intelligence from Abu Zubaydah. The CIA, driven by revenge and a hefty contract with psychologists Mitchell and Jessen, repeatedly reverted to torture, causing Abu Zubaydah to cease cooperation and demonstrating the program's failure to generate useful information, despite causing deaths through methods like the 'cold cell' and 12-day sleep deprivation.

Exposing the Torture Program

• 00:29:23 After leaving the CIA, Kiriakou waited for someone else to expose the torture program. However, after President Bush publicly denied US torture, Kiriakou decided to give an interview to ABC News in December 2007. He stated that the CIA was torturing prisoners, that torture was official US policy, and that President Bush personally approved it. This led to the CIA filing a crimes report against him, initiating an FBI investigation.

Politicized Prosecution

• 00:33:28 The FBI initially declined to prosecute Kiriakou, noting the information was already public and that classifying a crime to conceal it was illegal. However, under the Obama administration, John Brennan, who disliked Kiriakou, pushed for espionage charges against him, despite the Justice Department's initial disagreement. This led to Kiriakou facing five felonies, including three counts of espionage, ultimately leading to a plea deal after he went bankrupt.

Prison and Betrayal

• 00:41:07 Kiriakou recounts his arrest and subsequent imprisonment, highlighting the federal government's tactic of arresting individuals on Thursdays to ensure they spend the weekend in jail before arraignment, pressuring them to accept plea deals. Despite a judge recommending a minimum-security work camp, Brennan's influence led to Kiriakou being sent to a low-medium security prison. He experienced attempts to set him up for additional charges and physical harm from guards and inmates, orchestrated by the agency.

Life After Prison

• 01:03:05 Upon release, Kiriakou faced unemployment due to his felony conviction and bankruptcy. Inspired by his ex-wife's advice to keep telling his story, he continued writing books and columns, eventually gaining Greek citizenship and helping Greece and the EU draft whistleblower protection laws. He found common cause with populist Republicans on civil liberties, recognizing that the political system often prioritizes power over justice.

Deep State & Media Influence

• 01:35:45 Kiriakou criticizes the existence of an unelected, unaccountable 'deep state' within the federal bureaucracy that can circumvent presidential directives. He also condemns the media for distorting narratives, citing examples like January 6th and the Russia Gate investigation, which he claims was based on fabricated intelligence. He highlights the dangers of government propaganda being legalized through legislation like the NDAA, leading to a public unable to discern truth from falsehood.